Sit Down and Shut Up

Reuel Sample:
If pastors don't don't develop this style early, then they're going to fall into that idea of that young lady who said to you, oh, you actually are human and they're never going to make a connection.

Dave Lutes:
And burnout is on the cards. Ineffectiveness. You end up then throwing a bucket of milk out. If you get some you get If you don't, you don't. If you you're. You. You you drift into patterns and repetition. I know I did when I when I had no choice but to be the leader for a while. I found that I was wasn't fresh. I wasn't here. I was I was preaching according to what the sort of next chapter required us to preach on. Without hearing where the people were at and what they needed to hear, what they needed from me. And so I got into a regimen that that was much more mechanical, much less compassionate, much more programed. And yeah, it only took a few people to say in the nicest way possible, you're not, I can't scratch you. You're too thick skinned at the moment. You can't hear me anyway. So, I mean, I sound like I've got my act together. No, because. Because I'm an A-type, A-type personality who doesn't know how to quit and likes to drive rather than ride. But I'd like to think, I mean, all the work I'm doing with businesses and companies at the moment, as a consultant, as a non in a non Christian capacity is about the servant leadership message. But how we as leaders of our corporations, our businesses need to help people discover their meaning, purpose and focus for their lives and direction.

Reuel Sample:
Pastors need to know when to sit down and just shut up. Welcome to The Pastor's Voice. I'm Reuel Sample and I'm passionate about Christian worldview. I continue my discussion with Dave Lutes, minister, church planter and master trainer in leadership development. Today we talk about how important it is that pastors develop leaders within the church and how rewarding it can be when those same leaders tell those pastors to sit down, they have it from here.

Dave Lutes:
You know something that, you know, I'm not going to I'm not saying this to make my had my ego at all. But I was, again, back in South Africa, I, I was pastoring a church there, non-denominational, nonracial in the midst of apartheid, which was really a challenge. And I met up with my spiritual father, the guy who had led me to the Lord some years before. And we he was he was a habitual cheater at at Ping-Pong and lawn tennis. But what a lovely man of God. And he he brought me into the family and I was so grateful. Anyway, so he and I were very jokey, very sort of. He was my mentor. He's my best friend, my dad. And we were talking. And just having our usual sort of banter. And a young student who was part of the Dutch Reformed Church. Now the Dutch Reformed Church, the the Dorminy and the Dutch Reformed Church is just a notch below the Angels in terms of authority, power and all the rest. And what he says goes. And she was listening to this going back and forth and not asking any questions at all. And she said to us in Afrikaans, which I can't remember how to say it now, but she basically said and then we translated it. She said, and this is the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me. She said, Dorminy. David Dorminy. She said to me, Dorminy Dorminy, I believe you're the only dorminy I've ever met where I think if I scratch deep enough, I'll find a real person underneath.

Reuel Sample:
Interesting.

Dave Lutes:
And I thought, How sad, how nice, you know, but how sad that the leader was on the was at the top of the pyramid. And you sort of. It's what we do in business and organizations. We have command and control structures and we have empowered structures. Command and control is militaristic. Do what I say and do it when I say it. When I say it, how I say it. And it's it's commanded down through the system. Whereas empowered is about being authentic, real, transparent, open, caring for those around you now. I can't care for 150 people personally. I have a role. I have a teaching preaching role and I have a discipling role and I have a mentoring role, but I can't care for everybody. But what she implied was that I was one step closer simply because I was human being. You know? I mean, it was normal. I was a guy who actually cared in love people and wanted to help people learn, grow and improve, etc.. So that was that was a real not an eye opener to me, but it kind of echoed in my heart that I would love to develop and disciple and grow people like that in a fellowship, that transparent, real, authentic, what you see is what you get. You don't have to be a superstar. You don't have to be on top of your game all the time. But if you're a team of people who have shared values. And believe that equipping and developing of others, if we agree about how that should be done, well, then the load is shared. Sorry, one last thing I've got. I just wrote this in my book.

Dave Lutes:
Sorry. I was that same fellowship that I was pastoring, the non-denominational, nonracial, non-denominational group in South Africa. I had been working with my ten or 12 leaders over that year and trying very hard to do what I've just said. And anyway, we decided to go away for a weekend and we had a barbecue and had a glass of wine and joking around. And finally it was time to to meet, you know, have a formal sort of thing. And I sort of said, okay, guys, sit, I've got the things I want to share with you. And I got out my notes, as it were. I got my Bible out and one of the guys stood up and said, Dave, sit down and shut up. You're not doing this this weekend. We're doing it. You're the you've been giving, giving, giving. So take a break, man. You know, you we don't need you to prove to us that you're the pastor and that you're smart and that you love God. So sit down and shut up. We're going to talk. We're going to minister to you. And I just sat back and basked, basked in the in the warmth of their love and care and really good teaching. And I did make a point. I said, you're teaching really well. You've had a good mentor. You know, let me just say that. But but we were friends. We were brothers and friends. And I had, by the grace of God, had poured enough of my life into some of these guys that I didn't need. I'd worked myself out of that particular job. And it was a blessing, real blessing.

Reuel Sample:
So that is actually one of the answers to the question that I asked at the beginning is how can pastors develop their leadership? And that's by developing leaders around them who themselves will be empowered to keep the pastor accountable, to let them know when to step back. When you say we don't, we don't need you. What a wonder. What a wonderful thing. A matter of fact, I think every pastor should have at least one person from his high school or elementary case who will.

Dave Lutes:
Please no.

Reuel Sample:
Exactly, you know, because it really is an ego trip to be a pastor.

Dave Lutes:
Can be, really can be. And go ahead. Sorry. Go ahead.

Reuel Sample:
If pastors don't don't develop this style early, then they're going to fall into that idea of that young lady who said to you, oh, you actually are human and they're never going to make a connection.

Dave Lutes:
And burnout is on the cards. Ineffectiveness. You end up then throwing a bucket of milk out. If you get some you get If you don't, you don't. If you you're. You. You you drift into patterns and repetition. I know I did when I when I had no choice but to be the leader for a while. I found that I was wasn't fresh. I wasn't here. I was I was preaching according to what the sort of next chapter required us to preach on. Without hearing where the people were at and what they needed to hear, what they needed from me. And so I got into a regimen that that was much more mechanical, much less compassionate, much more programed. And yeah, it only took a few people to say in the nicest way possible, you're not, I can't scratch you. You're too thick skinned at the moment. You can't hear me anyway. So, I mean, I sound like I've got my act together. No, because. Because I'm an A-type, A-type personality who doesn't know how to quit and likes to drive rather than ride. But I'd like to think, I mean, all the work I'm doing with businesses and companies at the moment, as a consultant, as a non in a non Christian capacity is about the servant leadership message. But how we as leaders of our corporations, our businesses need to help people discover their meaning, purpose and focus for their lives and direction.

Dave Lutes:
And you solve two or three of those with the key people in your organization who you want to entrust with the future. And you do that on a personal way rather than on a regimented, militaristic way, command and control. You're going to keep your better people a lot longer and you're going to be much more effective. And it will come back to bless you and financial terms as well as other terms. I've often said that if we're going to spend a third of our day a time at work and a third of our time sleeping 8 hours, 8 hours and a third of our time doing something else, I mean, 8 hours of sleep. What is that? But anyway, you get the idea. It's probably a good idea that where I go to work allows me to come home and be for my family what they need me to be because and to sleep better. I mean, it's not not rocket science. It's interesting. When I went away, I used to go away a lot from here to the Middle East, and I'll be away for two or three weeks and come home. And if I was delivering a training course to leaders in Iraq or Saudi Arabia or wherever, and it went well, I mean, I'm very passionate about good material and good connection with people.

Dave Lutes:
I don't lecture, I engage, blah, blah, blah. And if it went well and I came home, it was it was often sometimes they stopped doing it now. But they used to say after a couple of days, Dad, we really think you ought to go away more often. You know, I go, you know, thanks a bunch. What? What do you mean? I said, Well, you've come home happy, you're tired, you're exhausted, but you're happy. We can feel it. We can sense it because you obviously enjoyed what you were doing. And we like this guy. We like this guy who who's come back with, okay, you can't give us the time of day. You fall asleep during the football game and we can't talk to you. But but nevertheless, this guy is content. He has peace. He enjoyed what he was doing. He's motivated by, you know, by his effort and the outcomes and the output. We like him. And I'm trying to help companies discover that that. A job description for a leader is one where he knows when to stop and he knows when to play to his strengths.

Dave Lutes:
He knows when to to back off because he doesn't can't do it. It's not that you don't need to be omni competent. Surround yourself with people smarter than you who have gifting that you don't have. And that's really troubling for some leaders. They find that very threatening and very a big risk. What if they work? What if they do it better than I do? Well, then you've done a great job. But the company is going to recognize you've done a great job and they're going to find a place for this guy or this woman. It's and the bigger the corporation, the harder it is. But and I've worked in some globales that it's a real struggle. But again, I'm famous for saying, don't boil the ocean, boil a teacup, start with one or two principles, processes and and and others in the organization, in your department. Work with them, fix what you can fix now, use them to improve and make it better. But use them. Work together with them. Do it. Just don't boil the ocean, boil a couple of teacups, and then word gets out. You know, it worked. You know, that process is effective. That's that's productivity off the chart and people are going to say, do that with me, too, you know.

Reuel Sample:
Well, that's that's how my good friend Chuck Colson, he wasn't a good friend. I knew him.

Dave Lutes:
You know, Chuck Colson.

Reuel Sample:
I knew Chuck Colson. I worked for him.

Dave Lutes:
Did you really?

Reuel Sample:
I worked for PFM and The Colson Center.

Dave Lutes:
Did you really? Wow. Oh, man, I'm impressed. I'm not impressed. Of course I'm not impressed. I'm humbled.

Reuel Sample:
Well, anyway, his this whole thought on Christian worldview and discipleship was he didn't use your teacup model, but he said, win hearts and minds one person at a time is that the church is the church isn't designed to take on the world, so it is designed to reach people one person at a time.

Dave Lutes:
I couldn't agree more, you know, and something that I'm now jumping on hobby horses with the group that I'm working with, and they're maybe getting tired of it, I don't know. But I've said to them consciously, I do it, you do it, Let's try to do it. Let's experiment consciously every day, every morning, say, Lord, I'm under new management. I'm under your authority. I've hung the sign around my neck that says and my heart that says, I'm under new management. I want what you want. I am available today. Whatever. If it whatever that means, I'm available. Is it to hug somebody, to send them a good email, to give somebody a word of encouragement, to share the gospel to whatever, take somebody to the hospital, drive them to the supermarket. If you do it in the name of the Lord, that's the church getting out of the building. You know, Elvis left the building. The church has got to leave the building.

Reuel Sample:
Next week, I conclude my conversation with Dave Lutes. We talk about the necessity of church leaders, both pastors and church members, to be intentionally available for God to use them however he wants, whenever he wants. And we talk about his new book, Guidance, Goofs and Grace. We do need your help in keeping the pastors voice going. Please click on the support the show link to donate any amount. Please also subscribe to our podcast on your favorite podcast platform. It doesn't cost anything, but it really does help us. And if you have any questions about our podcast, would like to be a guest or would like to become a sponsor, please email us at podcasts at the Pastors Voice.net. I'm Reuel Sample. Thank you for listening.